Utterly disgusting

do you think this is what happened though, its a newspaper remember, verer belive what you hear!! well thats my view..

The Londonist is good on this as well.
Why do the police lie so much?

Agree that if it's true there's something terribly wrong there.

However, having worked at MG Rover, who were the subject of much crap written by the guardian, I's say remember the expression that "you never know how bad newspapers are until they write about something you know about" or something along those lines.

yeah i know, ive recently experienced this, i dont read newspapers any more, my world news comes from here!!

why? the police make mistakes, like all people do. sometimes, very very sometimes, people die as a result of those mistakes. shit happens. How many people died as a result of police accidents/mistakes last year? I'll bet it's more than one, you just don't hear about them when it's not this case (becuase this case has guns, and terrorism, and foreigners and shooting and death and blood, so it's media-friendly)

My take on this is that our police force works bloody hard for not enough pay, with not enough resources and this is what we get for cutting back funding and increasing beurocracy. If you want someone to blame for this, look to Whitehall, not Scotland Yard.

ask yourself what that headline would have read if the guy had been carrying a bomb, and had set it off - "Why didn't Police act?" "Police do nothing while terrorist explodes station" "Give our boys more power to stop terror" and so on...

granted, i agree with the shoot to kill method, but i think the the media should get the full true fatcs before assuming, i rmemeber in police training that you should, under any circumstances, assume something

the media assume so much, and when their view is portrayed to the public, so many different views arise, and therefore no one trusts the police

*that should read NEVER assume something! sorry

see, it depends on exactly what happened that day down there, we are not told the truth and because of this, if the truth ends up to be he was innocent/a bomber, i dont think that many people would believe it!!

"This was an execution" - no it wasn't. it was an acidental killing. If it was premeditated to "get rid" of this guy - why do it on train, in public?

"fuck the police" - gonna say that after you've been robbed and you want your stuff back, or when they arrest the guy who was about to blow up the train you're on, or if your missus gets raped on the way home and you want the guy finding and locking up?

I trust the police. I sure as hell don't trust the media - remember that their job is to sell copy, not nessecarily to report the "truth"*


* I couldn't give a toss about the "truth". It's way out of my league, and if you think otherwise, you're delusional. What are you going to do, if you knew the 100% facts about this incident? Nothing. Exactly. And even if you manage to tell people, what are they going to do? Stop paying council tax? It's not like we elect the police force. You, me - in this kind of event we are nothing, and would do well to remember that.

To be honest, I don't trust the media or the police. But I'm not really sure what I can do about that except question what I'm told. And yes, I still don't know why this guy was restrained, yet still shot that many times.

Sorry, double post.

What I wanted to add is -that yes, the police are just doing their job. But if that's a job that involves running around with guns and no uniform, I want to be able to say I'm not happy about it.

I have to agree with Mat on this one.

A tragic mistake without doubt but if the cop on the scene has any reason to believe the guy had a bomb on him (probably due to be fed incorrect info from other officers) what choice does he have other then to pull the trigger?

Shouting "Stop, you're under arrest" to a man with a bomb strapped to himself and fully intending to kill himself just isn't going to work is it?

dude and that though is scary! we are nothing, we are the public.!!!!

Accidental killing, not accidental firing of the gun. They got the "kill" order and followed it as they had been trained to. Bad information is more dangerous than an itchy trigger finger.

Fuck the media indeed. That's a good healthy attitude.

You know what, if I'm on a train with a guy with a bomb and the cops shoot him. I'd rather they put a dozen bullets in his head to be on the safe side then one or two bullets as it'll look neater for the press.

The one headshot kill is in films and video games, not always in real life.

but he, as mat says, had orders, he could have had explosives strapped to his body, not a bag, and a finger on the dettonator!

If you wanted someone dead, would you cap them in public, during a police operation? As a policeman, you would know full well that an enquiry would follow, and that you wouldn't get away with just killing someone who you 'wanted' dead. Far easier to track them at night have an 'accident' in a quiet alleyway.

Also, if you genuinely believed that you had to kill the guy in front of you, FAST, or he'd explode and you would die too, you'd empty a clip into him. I know I would.

The explosive wouldnt need to be on him either, you can detonate something miles away with a mobile phone.

The amount of shots does not bother me, they thought they where doing the right thing in killing him, I do not for a minute believe that they killed this man just to get their "Jolly's" they made a choice based on information and judgement as they have to every day, this time they where wrong, thats the price we pay for the society we live in.

I believe the Police to be under paid and under rated, give them a break they are only human.

well said steve!

He was an electrician, remote devices are easy peasey to make, all you need is a mobile and a pager!

Of course I would be devistated and would want their heads on a plate if it was somone I knew. But I would not and should not be involved in the argument if that is the case, that is why we have objective juries.

you can remore detonate a home made bomb.

Do you honestly believe that we have police death squads going around?

I genuinely believe that the officers in question made a mistake, either due to bad information or bad training. I don't think the individual should be punished any more than he has been, he will have to live his life knowing that he took an innocent mans life.

If you need to point fingers and I think there should be an independant enquiry, then I think you should wait for their findings, we posses none of the facts.

excellent, can we all have a shandy now? and maybe a group hug, I hate it when we fight.

Can someone please scan this story for me?
Mat? Send that one over? Please? I want to read the story myself before I say anything.

But thats all it is.... "A point of view" mine is no more relevant than yours, and I don't believe I or anyone else said that it was.

"getting shit for what I think" Sorry is no one ment to disagree with you? We form and test are opinions through discusion.

There must be a right mess around your pram at the moment.

we don't live in a facist state, maybe a facile one though.

I can't say anything, much as I want to, because, I wasn't there. and even if I had been there,
ten people seeing the same picture will potentially describe it ten entirely different ways. throw the media into the mix, and bam, it's that multiplied by a factor of BAD.

Dude, don't get frustrated just because this particular set of folks don't agree/ understand where you're coming from. It's good to voice what you think, even if it seems like whispering into a hurricane, you know?

"I can see your view point and accept it as a possibility, why not the other way round? Dont dare say ' because you are wrong' because that is bollocks as no-one knows the facts. These are my opinions which I am entitled too. I'm tired and bored of typing the same thing and just getting shit for what I think."

Sounded like a pram moment to me.

"I thought you were better than that Steve. Once again, as I have a few times been, I am wrong." Yep I guess so, I do so hate disapointing people.

does the phrase "Time-Out" get used, in the UK?
as in "Billy and Sally were bickering again, so I gave them a timeout and sent them to stand in the corner . " ?

"Yep I guess so, I do so hate disapointing people."
Pretty constant then is it? Touche :)

its is used but it is also a chocolate bar, and a magazine....... if I have the choice can I have the mag?

I am willing to share though if he gives me half the chocolate

Dude, it did seem a little silly to be so mad at other folks for having their own opinions. not everyone wants to understand another side of things if they don't agree.
for example : I think that eating a rat would be possibly yucky.. however, I am open-minded to the possibility of doing so.
Some folks would rather die than even contemplate doing so!
it's just how stuff goes.

in conclusion, pie.

(come on, tell me pie doesn't make everything better?)

Deal, You bring the beer I will bring the whisky!

Pie and whisky...... Mmm

whisky pie with a fried beer-batter crust?
*thinks about the actual possibility of making such a thing*

Waste of good whisky.... but if its for science, then I am game

Thanks, Dude. :)

From just reading the story with an objective eye, really it's largely about the story, isnt it? There's a mysterious "leaked report". we don't know where it really came from. It's not verifiable. It *does not make it untrue*, but it doesn't make it hard evidence, either. It does make it something that sells a lot of papers, though.

What I find most intersting in the report of this story is actually how close the cop *who was allegedly holding this guy* came to being capped himself. Based on the descriptions given in the article it really sounds like the cop doing the holding could have just as easily been shot in the head.

I will say the *headline* though, is misleading. There's no mention of "secret report leaked saying...." even in small letters. This is presented as fact from the get-go. That's designed to make people angry and sell papers. Well done, Guardian, but do you think you could add some fine print?

All is forgotten, if you can't rant at family then who can you?

"the media has planted its dirty seed in my brain."

Nice image, would it be rupurt Murdock?

Nor I,

Good luck on the no smoking, it's never easy but worth it!

I gave up because I got so annoyed with the tobbaco companies

oh I wish I'd been around for this discussion, what worries me most is the "facts" which came out immediately after the story
"he jumped the barrier"
"he was running away from armed police"
"he had a big coat on"
"the action was based on military intelligence (oxymoron?)"

accident or manslaughter, either way, we where lied to at the time, and that pisses me off.

What dude said!

here is a definition of accident:
"anything that happens by chance without an apparent cause"
This was not an accident. It was a mistake an error of very large magnitude not an accident. It is impossible to shot someone 7 times in the head by accident.
As for the "what if he had a bomb", that makes the move to strike preemptive and if we havent learnt the dangers of that already then thats where the problem is.
Look at Iraq. We were told that what happend there would stop or stem terrorism globally not increase it.

Yes the police probably do a good job, but they have to remain accountable like everybody in this society. Elementary morality needs to be applied. We have to use the same rules to judge everyone. The police made a mistake and they need to be accountable for that mistake. (definition:"a wrong action attributable to bad judgment or ignorance or inattention") not an accident!!

Your right that they need to be accountable for their actions, I just don't think that they need to be judged by the media and the public. An independant inquiry will suit me just fine.

If it is actually independant it would be good.

something tells me though that they will be let off the hook with no resignations or real acknowledgment of responsibility.
"Desperate times call for desperate measures"

I would like to be wrong!

I'm a little glad that I didn't get all that far with my application to the IPCC now.

It would have been interesting, but also quite, quite frustrating I think. Although that beats simply frustrating. Which covers a lot of work, really.

Tabs works for the IPCC, it's interesting, but mostly you dont get the hard stuff like this.

Well yes, I guess the bulk of it is mostly standard complaints, but it can't be easy when a policeperson is found to be seriously in the wrong. Depending on the policeperson.

The process by which they are taken to court is a long one, and the IPCC is both methodical and beaurocratic. I *do not* envy her the job.

And presumably she deals with the Met?

Yep, interesting but frustrating.

gah. Still, more power to her and all that.